creeds

In a previous meeting we had looked at the doctrine of the trinity, this led us on to looking at creeds and how the idea of the trinity developed and became fixed (to some extent) in the ancient creeds that we still say in church today.

We decided to follow on from this by looking at what is a modern example of a creed, and that is the Basis of faith of the Evangelical Alliance.

This had been revised in 2005, the previous version had been written in 1970. 

It was interesting both to look at the content of the latest statement but also to compare the two and think about what had caused the compilers to change their ideas.

There were many differences, not least in terms of language, the 1970 statement used language that was not even usual for it's time being very formal and legal. The 2005 version used far more ordinary language. The 2005 version was also more inclusive re. women and men, the 1970 version spoke entirely about 'man' and 'men'. The 2005 version was quite a bit longer and often, it seemed, more explicit. We thought that perhaps this was as some ideas had being challenged since the 1970 statement was drawn up. For example there was no mention of Jesus' virgin birth in the 1970 statement but in 2005 it was mentioned, is this because in the gap between these statements people had questioned the idea of the virgin birth? In addition to being more explicit it introduced ideas about how evangelical christians should act, ie. to have concern for creation, justice and love, the 1970 version was almost entirely concerned with what evangelicals believed (should believe?).

There was a feeling that as soon as you try and put belief into a statement like this you create problems of interpretation, that you are both forced to try and be very precise without ever actually being able to completely nail down a meaning.

Personally I think that by their very nature creeds & statements of faith have the effect of excluding certain people (those who cannot sign up for it) from the group that has produced it. They are about defining who is in and who is out, who is orthodox and who is not. Much like the issues we currently have in the Anglican Communion in which different groups find it impossible to accept that others believe different things about, for example, woman being bishops. 

Certainly there were some members of our group that would not have been able to sigh up for the whole of the Evangelical Alliance's Basis of Faith.

-----

Next meeting we'll be thinking about poverty, what is it and what can/should we do about it?

wwjvf?

Who Would Jesus Vote For?

Not a serious discussion of which party Jesus would have supported at the recent election but a way into thinking about the election and how we as christians should decide how to vote.

An interesting, and robust, discussion followed and in particular highlighted different approaches to support for poorer people in society. On one had seeing this as principally the Government's responsibility (through taxation) and on the other hand the responsibility of society as a whole with a special responsibility on those who are wealthy to intervene.

Poverty is a topic we will come back to at a future meeting.

sayings from the cross

For our first meeting after lent we looked at the seven sayings from the cross. As an exercise we had the sayings printed out on separate pieces of paper and were asked as a group to match them to the four different gospels. The seven sayings (in alphabetical order!):

• I thirst
• It is finished.
• Father forgive them, for they know not what they do
• Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.
• My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?
• My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?
• Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise
• Woman, behold your son: behold your mother

I know there are 8 here, but one is in two gospels.

We scored about 50% how well can you do?

My thoughts in doing this exercise were to highlight the way we can conflate the gospels into one and that perhaps this is not always a good idea as each gospel is telling the story of Jesus in a particular way. In the end we only scored about 50% (not sure what we would get if we just randomly assigned the sayings, Jane or Doug any thoughts?).

lost gospels

At our meeting before lent (yes ages ago I know). We watched a programme about the many gospels that didn't make it into the bible. Many of these were written much later than the gospels that we find in the New Testament. Although the early church did not consider that these gospels should be included in what became the New Testament it was still interesting to see what kind of picture they painted of Jesus. What came across was the extent to which different writers 'saw' Jesus differently and told his story in a particular way to make a particular point. Something that we can see in the very different accounts we get in the four New Testament gospels as well.

This could be seen as a problem, eg. which of these accounts is the 'correct' one or it could be seen as an advantage as it shows there is not one orthodox way of seeing and understanding Jesus and his significance.

the trinity

At our meeting on the 2nd June we we looked at the Gospel reading from the previous Sunday (John 16.12-15), which was Trinity Sunday. We had an interesting discussion about the development of the doctrine of the trinity and how long this took to become the established view of the church, finally being decided at church councils 325 and 381.

This lead to a discussion of creeds and how and why they were formed. To some extent at least they were concerned with defining who was and was not an orthodox christian. This still happens today and we looked at an example of a modern day 'creed'. The Evangelical Alliances Basis of Faith Statement, which we look at in more detail next week.

Below are some thoughts of Katharine Jefferts Schori the Presiding Bishop of the Anglican Churtch in North America.

http://www.thinkinganglicans.org.uk/archives/004388.html

The willingness to live in tension is a hallmark of Anglicanism, beginning from its roots in Celtic Christianity pushing up against Roman Christianity in the centuries of the first millennium. That diversity in community was solidified in the Elizabethan Settlement, which really marks the beginning of Anglican Christianity as a distinct movement. Above all, it recognizes that the Spirit may be speaking to all of us, in ways that do not at present seem to cohere or agree. It also recognizes what Jesus says about the Spirit to his followers, "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come" (John 16:12-13).

Robert Rowland Smith on Feeling Lonely

http://theschooloflife.typepad.com/the_school_of_life/2010/05/robert-rowland-smith-on-feeling-lonely-1.html

I liked the idea of "essential solitude".

The "real meaning of Christmas"

Well for our first meeting of 2010 we thought a little about the "real meaning of Christmas". A much used phrase, but what do we mean by it? What would Christmas look like if we stripped away all the cultural baggage that has been attached to it?

Well, not surprisingly, we didn't really come up with a definitive answer to this question, but on the way we did think about how the season of Christmas developed within the church and how it related to other existing pagan festivals. We also looked at Epiphany and found that this became part of the church calendar before Christmas. We also considered the church calendar in general and the two cycles of Christmas (based around a fixed date) and Easter (based around a moveable Sunday). This is why we get two variable periods of "ordinary time" between the two different cycles. One after Candlemas on 2nd Feb until lent starts, and one from the end of pentecost until advent.

Archbishop of Canterbury's Christmas sermon at Canterbury Cathedral

The Archbishop of Canterbury - Archbishop of Canterbury's Christmas sermon at Canterbury Cathedral

And in the case of children, we shall do our level best to turn you into active little consumers and performers as soon as we can. We shall test you relentlessly in schools, we shall bombard you with advertising, often highly sexualised advertising, we shall worry you about your prospects and skills from the word go; we shall do all we can to make childhood a brief and rather regrettable stage on the way to the real thing - which is 'independence', turning you into a useful cog in the social machine that won't need too much maintenance.

The whole sermon is worth a read, not too long, but I especially liked this bit about how society treats children. The whole sermon is about an appropriate dependancy, on god and each other.

advent

For our last two meetings we looked at the readings for the first and third Sundays in Advent, oh and we had a little party :)

the creation of Adam

At our meeting on the 11th November we looked a three paintings of the Creation of Adam.

Before looking at the pictures we read the two passages that describe the creation of Adam.

 Genesis 1.26-27. Then God said, ‘Let us make humankind^* in our image, according to our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the wild animals of the earth,^* and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.’
So God created humankind^* in his image,
   in the image of God he created them;^*
   male and female he created them. ²⁷

Genesis 2.7. Then the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground,^* and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living being.

The first was by Michelangelo and was part of the painting on the Sistine Chapel.

The second was by William Blake and was used to illustrate a poem. Elohim Creating Adam.

The third was by Benedict Cambell which was painted in 2003 and was a digital painting which was a reinterpretation of Michelangelo's painting.

We thought about why the artists had chossen to show Adam and God in the ways they had. We looked in particular at the differences in the pictures and what this might say about the artists' ideas about God.

this and that

At our last meeting (28th October) we didn't have anything planned as such so had a general chat about the world etc.

We had a vigorous discussion about anthropogenic climate change and also the talked about the financial crises and it's impact on the developing world and international trade in general. In particular free trade that truly opens up all markets, not just the markets in the developing world (eg. USA and EC).

'Death tourism' leads Swiss to consider ban on assisted suicide | Society | The Guardian

'Death tourism' leads Swiss to consider ban on assisted suicide | Society | The Guardian

Interesting in light of our recent discussions.

heaven in ordinarie

For our meeting on 14th October we thought about how the "ordinary" is often overlooked. We expect to feel close to God on mountain tops and (hopefully) in church. However most of our lives we are not in these places, we are on the bus, at work, doing the washing up etc.

We started with one of the Quakers' Advices and queries. These are short suggestions/questions that Quakers are encouraged to read (both corporately and individually) and reflect on. The one we read was:

7. Be aware of the spirit of God at work in the ordinary activities and experiences of your daily life. Spiritual learning continues throughout life, and often in unexpected ways. There is inspiration to be found all around us, in the natural world, in the sciences and arts, in our work and friendships, in our sorrows as well as in our joys. Are we open to new light, from whatever source it may come? Do you approach new ideas with discernment?

We then looked at a poem by George Herbert (1593-1633) called 'Prayer'.

PRAYER the Churches banquet, Angels age, 
       
Gods breath in man returning to his birth, 
     
The soul in paraphrase, heart in pilgrimage,
The Christian plummet sounding heav’n and earth ;

Engine against th’ Almightie, sinner's towre, 
     
Reversed thunder, Christ-side-piercing spear, 
     
The six daies world-transposing in an houre, 

A kinde of tune, which all things heare and fear ;

Softnesse, and peace, and joy, and love, and blisse, 
     
Exalted Manna, gladnesse of the best, 
     
Heaven in ordinarie, man well drest, 

The milkie way, the bird of Paradise,

Church-bels beyond the stars heard, the souls bloud, 
    
The land of spices, something understood.

In this poem there are many images for prayer, some quite hard to grasp!

I partly got the idea for this topic from a Greenbelt speaker, John Davis who thinks that christians have a habit of devaluing the 'ordinary'. To counteract this he has written prayers about the everyday. See below for his prayer giving thanks for mobile phone masts.

We give thanks for mobile phone masts
Standing tall above our streets

Silent gatherers of our digital conversations; connecting us to satellites in outer space and friends in neighbouring houses; witnesses of our desire to communicate with others; beamers of text messages around the world.

We celebrate the holy mystery of radio waves - thousands of them criss-crossing through the air unseen, permitting us to catch and ride their frequencies as surfers ride incoming waves;
We celebrate the skills of those who have turned such mysteries to our practical use;
We stand beneath these tall grey masts, and we celebrate the wonder of new technology.

A blessing on those who call to ask us how we are;
A blessing on those who call to tell us where they are;
A blessing on those who call to invite us, kindly, to join them.

We give thanks for mobile phone masts
Standing tall above our streets.

Give us patience with those who play with their phones more than they talk to us;
Help us cope with those who use their phones so publicly they include us in their conversations;
Keep us calm if the person driving close behind us is dangerously on the phone.
Give us grace to know when to turn our phones on - to talk; and off - to rest;
Save us from radiation, repetitive strain injury, earache and excessive phone bills;
Keep us connected to the earth beneath our feet as much as the world between our ears.

We give thanks for mobile phone masts
Standing tall above our streets

Our initial reaction was that this was not a 'proper prayer'. But why is that? Because we have expectations about what 'proper prayers' are about and mobile phones don't fit that expectation?

We then talked about the influence of the media in advertising and various life style and celebrity magazines. They are selling a picture of the 'good life' that is anything but 'ordinary'. Our ordinary lives are drap and boring if we don't look like and smell like celebrities, we are encouraged to define our selves by what we consume and own and by the extremeness of our experiences.

But this is not something we can live up to and so we are at risk of devaluing our 'ordinary' lives. We need to reclaim the sacredness of everyday life. We finished with a Celtic prayer, the Celtic Christians had a habit of praying about the everyday things they did, making the beds, lighting the fire and so on.

Bless to me, O God,
Each thing mine eye sees;
Bless to me, O God,
Each sound mine ear hears;
Bless to me, O God,
Each odour that goes to my nostrils;
Bless to me, O God,
Each taste that goes to my lips;
Each note that goes to my song;
Each ray that guides my way;
Each thing that I pursue;
Each lure that tempts my will;
The zeal that seeks my living soul,
The three that seek my heart,
The zeal that seeks my living soul,
The three that seek my heart.

assisted suicide

On the meeting on 30th Sep. we talked about the new guidelines on assisted suicide. Jim lead us through a selection of biblical passages that mentioned suicide. These included Saul, who interestingly enough asked his armour bearing to kill him, but the armour bearer refused and Saul falls on his own sword. We also looked at the passage where Judas kills himself (and briefly at the other passage where he does not!).

None of these passages really fit well with the current debate which is generally about people with terminal medical conditions being helped to commit suicide and whether the people who helped them would be prosecuted. In England and Wales suicide is no longer against the law (it was until the 1960's) but there is a law against assisting someone to commit suicide which has a penalty of up to 14 years in prison if convicted. The guidance was given as a woman with MS wanted to know that if her husband helped her commit suicide he would not be prosecuted.

We looked at the guidance and generally we felt it was a balanced way of addressing the issue, it did not make assisted suicide legal but did give guidance that could reassure relatives who acted with good motives to help someone commit suicide. We all felt that it should remain a crime with the possibility of prosecution, not least because this shows the seriousness of the act and might help reduce the risk of people encouraging or coercing people to commit suicide.

Some links, the first is particularly good, wish I had found it for the meeting.

assisted-suicide-guidelines-mental-health

assisted-suicide

terry-pratchett-assisted-suicide-guidelines

assisted-suicide-law-defences-recognised

long time no update...

Not updated during the summer as nothing happened in the summer - well as regards house group anyway :)

We had our first meeting back on 16th Sep. and spent it catching up on all the things that did happen during the summer, everyone seems to have had a more exotic and less wet holiday than Helen and I did...

Tony Campolo

For our meeting on 10th June a couple of us went to hear Tony Campolo speak at Westminster Central Hall. This was part of Premier Radio's birthday celebrations.

He spoke about power and authority and what characterises these two ways of being/leading. He felt that power was always cooercive, if someone has power you do what they say becasue they have the ability to punish you or force you. In contract someone with authority is followed because people regognise that they are right. He felt that Jesus was someone who had power and authority, but chose to give up his power and seek to persude people thorough his exercise of authority, which comes from his love and sacrifical vunerablity.

He felt that at times the church tried to get political influence (ie. power) when it should be trying to gain authority through the exercise of loving service.

(Doug if you have anything to add please do...)

Tony Campolo

Jesus the Jew

At the house group on 27th May we watched an episode of a Channel 4 series - 'The History of Christianity'. This episode was fronted by Howard Jacobson, an atheist Jew. He looked at the Jewish of Jesus and the disciples. The programme also explored the history of Jews and Christians and how for a long time Christians blamed Jews for the death of Jesus and how this has lead to persecution of and discrimination against Jews.

It was interesting to get an 'outsiders' view of Jesus. Jacobson was ultimately impressed with the Jesus he saw in the Gospels, with the message that he was preaching. He was less taken with the Church!

post resurrection appearances

At the house group on 13th May. We looked at some of the post resurrection appearances of Jesus. We noted that there are differences but that this was to be expected given that different people are recalling the events.

I thought it was interesting that Paul's list of appearances included his own on the Damascus Road without making any distinction between his 'vision' and the other appearances that we see in the gospels and Acts. Worth noting that Paul's letter is probably the earliest recorded account we have of the post resurrection appearances.

Colossians Remixed: Subverting the Empire

by Brian J. Walsh & Sylvia C. Keesmaat

Good fun, if occasionally quite hard work! You'd want to be a little versed in post-modernity to get the best out if it. I like the conclusions they come to but I'm not completely convinced they they can come to them from Colossians, still feels at time that we want to make the bible (or in this case Paul) agree with us rather than accept that maybe he got it wrong :-)

random quotes

... the danger of wanting a god, without being willing to allow this god to speak in a voice that is radically other to our voice, is that the god we end up with is like any other consumer product we take of the shelf (p34).

... a worldview is only as good as the praxis or way of life that it engenders (p113).

There can be no indubitable foundation of knowledge, no uninterpreted experience, no completely transparent reading of the world. (Miroslav Volf) (p122)

We can probably tell as much about the real spirituality and the real worldview of a people by looking at the cars they drive, the food they consume, the gadgets that fill their homes and the garbage they throw out as we can by listening to the songs they sing and the prayers they pray (199)

Dealing with our differences

This final session looked in particular at the Bible and how we understand it and use it. In thinking about this we considered the following passage:

2 Timothy 3.16-17 "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that everyone who belongs to God may be proficient, equipped for every good work"

We looked at this passage in other translations and some used the term 'God breathed' which we liked. This is related to the word 'inspired'. This seemed to be rather poetic language.

The passage says that scripture is 'useful', some of us felt that this was not a particularly strong word. It does not seem to preclude finding other things 'useful' in addition. Some of us felt that some Christians had put too much weight on this short passage and that a doctrine of infallibility was not really deducible from this passage. We noted that Paul in writing this is clearly not talking about what we undertaking as the New Testament which creates a kind of circular argument - ie. scripture is 'inspired' because it says so in scripture. We do not all agree with the statement that "The Bible is factually true and completely consistent."

Although we didn't think every single verse in the Bible contained useful instructions etc. we did feel that sometimes we are surprised by how some passages are understood by different people. For example some groups have found the genealogies very significant as in their culture it signifies authority.

We thought about how we can approach scripture in different ways which don't necessarily invalidate each other. For example the story of Abraham and Isaac can be seen as being about how Abraham was obedient to God and showed great faith, it could be seen as a foreshadowing of Jesus' sacrifice and it could also be seen as a condemnation of child/human sacrifice (not an exhaustive list!).

Other examples of conflict in the Bible. Paul and Barnabas had a strong disagreement - perhaps this is an example of how not to do it? Philemon and his slave Onesimus; is perhaps saying something about how relationships in Christ transcend all other relationships, ie. slave and master. Jesus suggested that anger was at the route disagreement. Matt 5.22

Ultimately we all saw the Bible as important and 'useful' but were all too aware that it could be misused and that people would always 'read' it differently.